I don’t think Ron Paul is nuts, but all too many of his supporters are, and he does little to rein in their juvenile conspiracy thinking. Their diatribes make last decade’s Waco and Randy Weaver legends appear sane in comparison. Now, when we think of those who stick to reasoned arguments and avoid guilt-by-association and ad hominem arguments, one name that usually does not come to mind is that of Andrew Sullivan. He’s famous for castigating his opponents as hate-mongers and “Christianists.” He has a rabid hatred for Bush based largely, it appears, on Bush’s opposition to gay marriage. So lately he’s enamored of Ron Paul, whose rhetoric appeals to the Constitution-lover in all of us. Yet Paul can’t win. He is too dismissive of the threat of terrorism. He can’t think of a principled reason to oppose mass immigration. His willingness to embrace states’ rights would soon alienate many of his supporters, not least folks like Sullivan who don’t want states to ban gay marriage (or permit segregated schools), both of which would be allowed in Ron Paul’s universe.
Sullivan seems to have forgotten what is normally important to him; he notes that among Bush’s people “you will hear Paul described as ‘nutty’ and anti-Semitic and fringe and marginal and on and on . . .” Well, isn’t this funny, considering how often Sullivan employs this line of argument against anyone that disagrees with his thoroughly radical view of family life, or his defense of pederasts, or his hatred of Evangelicals (and the leadership of the Catholic Church), or the like.
You see, for most people, including Sullivan, liberalism is simply obvious; it’s in the air that they breathe. Its premises, its controversies, and its narrow range of thinking are beyond question. Those who deviate are utterly baffling to liberals, who presume their traditionalist critics are malevolent. Incidentally, Ron Paul does not deviate from this orthodoxy; he’s just an old-line classical liberal who accepts the fundamental liberal view that society has no particular purposes other than the facilitation of individual desires. To think outside of liberal individualism, to acknowledge some prudential limit on a libertarian or liberal viewpoint, to suggest that something is owed to society or the past or the state is anathema. Because rationalistic liberalism, of which libertarianism is just an off-shoot, by its nature does not have any internal limiting principles. Society must be organized according to its rationalist and materialist lines or, according to its logic, the absolute demands of “human rights” are being violated. This is not the politics of balance and prudence and compromise, but the total politics of ideology. With such totalism comes the ritual denunciations of others as Christianists, haters, war-mongerers etc.
Ron Paul only appeals to Sullivan because he’s a gadfly who shares Sullivan’s (au courant) view that the Iraq War is a mistake. As with Bush, whose “compassionate conservatism” once appealed to Sullivan’s gobbeldy-gook moderate views, Sullivan’s romantic sentiments will soon be dashed by some expression of a genuinely conservative viewpoint by Paul, such as his opposition to civil rights laws. At that point, expect Sullivan to return to his tried-and-true modus operandi: hysterical denunciation of yet another heart-breaking politician who has the temerity not to agree with him on everything.
6 Nov 2007 at 8:08 pm
How do you suggest he reign [sic] in their juvenile conspiracy thinking? Should he tell them to vote Democrat?
6 Nov 2007 at 8:19 pm
He should do it the same way Clinton did in ‘92 when Sista Soujah [sic] said a moronic remark about killing white people: he should condemn these ideas, say that he does not share them, and suggest that those who believe them don’t understand his true views. It’s pretty simple actually, but for the fact that such weirdos are his core constituency.
6 Nov 2007 at 9:15 pm
No, I don’t think it’s pretty simple. If, for instance, you’re referring to his supporters in the 9/11 truth movement, then Paul’s position is clear, but they still support him, because i)he’s the only person who doesn’t treat them with contempt or scorn; ii)he’s anti-war.
Politics is the art of building coalitions, and Paul needs all the support he can get. Go, Ron, go!
6 Nov 2007 at 9:26 pm
He won’t win. I like Tom Tancredo. He won’t win either. So why don’t you come and sit at the big kids’ table and support someone who can win.
6 Nov 2007 at 9:41 pm
I’m English, so my support doesn’t count anyway. But if it comes down to supporting someone who can win – e.g., Hillary or Rudy – I’ll respectfully hand back the ticket.
6 Nov 2007 at 9:55 pm
Mr. Paul’s candidacy has a few blemishes but those other apples are rotten clear through. They are not worth supporting. The Republicans have been serving up this stuff for years, hoping that we would continue to take it because the Democrats are worse. No sale this time, folks!
6 Nov 2007 at 10:06 pm
Fine, if it’s a protest vote. I accept that. I couldn’t vote for a Rudy or McCain for instance, though possibly a Romney or Thompson. But if you’re protesting, at least don’t pretend your long shot candidate has a chance and live in la la land.
6 Nov 2007 at 11:08 pm
Until we stop making deals with the devil we will have more of the same. Is it useful to continue supporting political parties that openly betray your core values so that you can say you didn’t “waste” your vote? It beggars common sense to make such an assertion. We need to move beyond having no choice save “sitting it out” or casting a protest vote.
6 Nov 2007 at 11:24 pm
“We need to move beyond” it? Through, what, the massive upheaval of a wholesale re-write of the U.S. Constitution and the associated statutes and state charters controlling our elections and government that is near-certain to have cataclysmic effects the scope of which cannot possibly be known?
6 Nov 2007 at 11:48 pm
In response to Jule’s earlier comment – 9/11 conspiracy theorist deserve contempt and scorn. The fact that Paul affords them respect they don’t deserve is a good enough reason in itself not to support him.
7 Nov 2007 at 3:03 am
Most americans are willing to be blinded by comfort and(or) complacency, when our economy crashes (and it will eventually) and our fiat oil-based dollar is no longer the reserve currency of the world (coming sooner than you think), we will all wish someone would have reformed our monetary system before it was too late.
Nobody predicted the end of the British Empire in the 1920s, they would have been called nutty
7 Nov 2007 at 3:49 am
I like Ron Paul’s limited government views. Period. End of sentence. Cue crickets chirping.
Of course, I’m a dreaded neo-con who recalls how badly it hurt the United States and countless individuals around the world when we threw the Vietnamese over-board and were forced into an alliance with China when it was far, far worse than it’s present mercantilist and only mildly murderous incarnation.
As for Proud ron paul Supprter, by Golly, the British Empire imploded ahead of schedule, so let’s intentionally accelerate the implosion of a benign American-dominated world order and see how the new versions of de-colonization turn out. The blood pouring from europe if we adopt such a course would rapidly oveflow the mere gutter of the Atlantic. I doubt we’d stay out then, only we’d be fighting from the last ditch, not the first.
7 Nov 2007 at 3:52 am
[...] me as a sane, calm Ron Paul (on whom see here)with extra religiosity and the common touch. He’s still engenders in me the suspicion that [...]
7 Nov 2007 at 5:00 am
this is all fine and great but unfortunately, americans have been infected with the stupid disease…..
7 Nov 2007 at 5:52 am
To read your article is to know someone who knows not of their constitution nor of their own government. What President is history has gotten everthing they wanted? None, not ever. If states had more rights, like in the constitution, they still could not have seperate schools. It’s called the 14th Amendment and it states,”nor shall any States deprive any person of life, liberty…” , look it up. There are still rules states would have to follow my friend. I urge you to actually read the constitution before writing anything else. To understand what the founders hoped we would work towards is to understand Dr. Pauls positions. Of which I am not in 100% agreement with, but what could we do to check his power. Oh wait, that’s the congress’s job. Again I got this info from the constitution. Do you see a pattern here? Maybe it’s easier for me because I am currently in school and am studing it as a part of my classes. So I shouldn’t be so mean and my apologies if you were just unaware. I am just tired of people making assumptions and not fact checking things before they write them. Dr. Paul may not have all the answers but he uses our nations greatest resources more than most, the constitution and people’s individual actions. Also the notion that you must support someone just because they will win is so very high school. I choose to think for myself, do you? I grew up in a Republican family who thinks Ronald Reagan was right up there with Jesus. I am still a Republican and have almost left the party on several occasions due to our current Presidents failure to live up to 2000 campaign promises. For yourself go back and listen to what he said in that 2000 campaign and you may be disturbed. Oh wait 9/11 changed everything, right? To make that assertion is to ignore the rest of the world. It is an arrogant assumption to think that way at best. Easy answers are generally wrong because they ignore the complexity of people and societys. Life is complex and answers to problems take more than 30 seconds. I am but a mere 28 years of age and do not know everything there is to know. But I do know when I have been lied too and I do know that Ron Paul wants to restore our republic to the glory days that made us able to build such an empire. What I dont know is who pays your bills and what is so scary about some guys in cave with no army and no navy? We have thousands of nuclear weapons, why are we scared of anyone? If you want to be truely scared read the military commisions act given by democrates to our President. That is what I am scared of not some cave dwellers living in a country we support with our tax dollars. I dont playa hate, I just stay awake… And that’s my 2 cents should anyone care. Reformed Bush voter – David Monk
7 Nov 2007 at 11:50 am
“benign American-dominated world order”
That’s the problem – it’s NOT benign. Seriously, look at how the rest of the world views the United States right now. It’s not a favorable opinion, and it’s not based on jealousy, either. It’s based on our disregard for rule of law, disregard for the Geneva Conventions, disregard for basic human rights of dissidents, and disregard for habeas corpus.
7 Nov 2007 at 12:58 pm
Who knew Roach’s forum was a major hangout for Ron’s merry men?
It’s just a pity he’s a bit of a gink. I mean that in a nice way, of course.
And I’m the last one to throw stones at 9/11 truthers. I’m interested in Holocaust revisionism, which puts my social standing only slightly above that of paedophiles.
7 Nov 2007 at 1:02 pm
For the sake of clarity, I was referring to Ron Paul, not Chris Roach, as being a bit of a gink. I have no opinion on Roach’s ginkiness or otherwise.
7 Nov 2007 at 1:51 pm
Tom Tancredo’s position on gay marriage doesn’t follow logic. He says that married couples will have children, therefore the state encourages marriage. There are many ways to increase population. He could just mandate rape and outlaw abortion and he would get lots of babies. But that wouldn’t be politically savvy.
Marriage does not equal more soldiers or tax payers or carriers of tradition. Tancredo’s official web site says, “The mere fact that two people are in a loving relationship does not matter to the state. Society supports traditional marriage because it is the only union which, in the ordinary course, leads to children, without the intervention of a third party.” Where does that leave married couples who would rather not have children? Why does he not address forced marriage, forced childbearing, divorce, or other deviancies in his simple “traditional” equation? What is is saying is that love doesn’t matter, even in a traditional marriage–just give the state babies! Doesn’t he assume too much about an “ordinary course” of marriage? Is Tancredo nuts?
7 Nov 2007 at 1:53 pm
Sorry about the typo “is is”. I meant to type “he is”.
7 Nov 2007 at 2:33 pm
Wow, David, thanks for reminding me to read the Constitution. I’m a little bit familiar with it, and might have taken a class or two myself. I don’t disagree with Paul’s desire to shrink the federal government to its Constitutional limits. I also think the “take care” and “commander in chief” powers, along with the Congressional authorization of force post 9/11 give any President ample power to deal with something like al Qaeda.
Tancredo does not deny reality. He knows not all married couples will have children. But he knows too that the primary purpose of marriage was to create a socially sanctioned–indeed, socially privileged–and stable institution in which to raise children. Marriage does not necessarily mean more soldiers and tax payers. It does however mean fewer bastards, and bastards cause society a lot of trouble. Just go to a housing project sometime.
7 Nov 2007 at 3:44 pm
Chris, seeing how many comments you’ve gotten on this post, I have a suggested next post for you which will be sure to drive up traffic:
“Ron Paul discovers Bush Conspiracy to Cover up 9/11, suppress Jena blacks, and stop Gay Marriage”
7 Nov 2007 at 4:18 pm
Ooooh, maybe the gays would be willing to adopt the bastards and give them good homes? Mr. Roach, I am provoked to think more when I read your blog but I don’t understand why you need to label people the way that you tend to do. Despite not agreeing with some of the stereotypes, at least I concede you are provocative.
Why is marriage a necessarily stable institution? What about considering that maybe the institution, when viewed from a simplistic and presumptuous point of view, is stable, but the individuals are not? I could be on drugs (and yet married) or using homeschool to teach my children a whacky diversity curriculum (and yet married). I could at one time be married and at a future time be divorced and then perhaps marry again. Is my value to the state changing as I marry, divorce, re-marry?
I’m just here for your educational enrichment and entertainment. The uncanny thing is we would both consider voting for Ron Paul.
7 Nov 2007 at 4:37 pm
Bastard is a technical term. Look it up.
Marriage is stable (or at least used to be) because it is not as easily escaped as, say, a live in boyfriend.
Marriage works for the most part; kids from stable, married homes do better than bastards or children of divorce. Look at any elite graduate program, a much higher percentage of students come from stable, nuclear families. Look at a prison; no one there knows there father unless he’s over in Cellblock B. Marriage seems to work because men and female personalities provide balance to a child’s upbringing in a way a single parent or two of the same sex parents do not. Also, men will only tend to make heavy investments in their own children, which can only really be guaranteed to some extent by a monogamous marriage. Just ask a single mom about that reality some time.
To state the obvious: yes, as you divorce, your marriage and social value declines, particularly if you put your kids through the ringer and mess them up.
7 Nov 2007 at 4:45 pm
By Fightingwindmills’s logic, governments should not sanction or facilitate anything which merely tends to produce beneficial outcomes. Any instance to the contrary automatically invalidates it from special consideration.
I wonder if he thinks universal adult suffrage should likewise be rescinded because it allows people like him to have the vote.
7 Nov 2007 at 5:52 pm
What I wanted to convey was that promoting marriage is “social engineering” yet I got the impression from another post that Mr. Roach was against social engineering. You’re not automatically better because you’re married. It’s so much more complicated than that.
7 Nov 2007 at 6:17 pm
I don’t think it’s social engineering when an institution pre-exists government–such as property, marriage, parentage, religion–and the society gives it a boost when that institution is necessary for the good working of government and social life. It’s quite different to say everything is infinitely malleable and we’ll use the government to go against pre-existing institutions. So, yes, I don’t believe in social engineering, but nor do I believe in a government that is indifferent to society, its institutions, the family, religion, etc.
7 Nov 2007 at 6:49 pm
One of the great ironies of the Left’s fight against inherited social institutions is the disproportionate damage that the beakdown of these social mores inflicts upon the lower classes.
Fightingwindmills is right to say that a married person is not automatically better than an unmarried person. Leaving aside for the moment the question of what makes a person better, the reality is that a married person is only on average more likely to benefit society than an unmarried person. I am sure there are millions of instances in which the opposite is the case.
In fact, the higher among the upper classes and the well-educated you creep, the more marginal this likelihood of higher social utility through marriage becomes. If you’re already wealthy, for instance, you are likely to provide for your children and not resort to criminality even if you do divorce or father bastards (of course this leaves out the emotional damage to the children).
But among the lower classes and less educated, there is a huge and overwhelming difference between the social utility of a stable married person and an unmarried person.
In fact, probably the greatest “class violence” that has been perpetuated in American society is the success of the priveleged in degrading social institutions and mores that were inconvenient for them but vital to the health of the lower classes.
We need to face the facts, the lower classes (on average) are less intelligent, less educated, and less able to make good life decisions than are wealthier citizens. They are also less likely (on average) to be able to parse the philosophical underpinnings of morality. That is why they need a firm, well-established code of morality and healthy threat of social stigma to guide them.
Take these things away, and you end up with today’s inner city.
7 Nov 2007 at 6:54 pm
Paul’s ideas may appear ‘nuts’ to those who have become complacent with large centralized government system.
There are those of us who think it’s sane to abandon the political wars against poverty, drugs, terror and stupidity (you think the education system is working?)
Sure, going back to the basics will be a rough road. The same type of zealous activism shown by Paul supporters will be required in new initiatives in education, combating poverty, and the other functions of government.
Many of us anticipate the coming years may bear witness to the fall of the US Empire… the resulting Anarchy will NOT be preferable to the solutions prescribed by Dr. Ron Paul.
7 Nov 2007 at 7:11 pm
Of course why wait for the collapse of the US Empire when we get global pandemonium straight up with Dr. P?
What do you think a precipituous U.S. withdrawal from the world stage will result in? It surely won’t result in the preservation of cheap Chinese imports, free flowing oil, and an American population made fat and happy by an economy dependent upon providing services to the rest of the globe.
Maybe in the end we’d be poorer but happier. Who knows? I just don’t know how Americans, who polls show consistently believe we are currently in a recession, would react to a global economic meltdown. I also figure that 90% of Ron Paul’s supporters would lose their enthusiasm when their pink slip arrived and the local mall closed.
7 Nov 2007 at 7:18 pm
Aren’t you confusing political and economic isolationism?
7 Nov 2007 at 7:25 pm
They come as a package.
To the extent that there is a global economy it is due to a hegemon being there to enable it. In the 1800’s and early 1900’s it was Britain, since then it’s been the U.S.
Fuck, the rest of world can’t even deal with Third-World speed boat pirates without the U.S. Navy stepping in.
Yes, the rest of the world can and should do more, but it is a long, long process.
7 Nov 2007 at 7:26 pm
I find it quite funny that those who support Ron Paul feel compelled to call him Dr. Paul. Does calling him a doctor elevate his credentials as a politician? Does it make him sound smarter? First of all, he was an OBGYN (IE a pussy doctor). Second, there are lots and lots and lots of doctors out there and a lot of them are very stupid outside of medicine, and certainly when it comes to practical issues. Heck, Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton are arguably the smartest Presidents we’ve ever had. Is it a coincidence they are also likely the worst Presidents we’ve ever had? Hmm….
Ron Paul, indeed. What a joke.
7 Nov 2007 at 10:50 pm
Are these last couple of replies the depths that Republican politics have sunk to under Bush and the neo-conservatives? Utter bilge.
8 Nov 2007 at 12:12 am
I’m surprised to see an Englishman using seafaring terminology like “bilge” now that the Royal Navy is being scrapped.
8 Nov 2007 at 12:44 am
If you believe in Ron Paul, you should vote for him, whether he has a chance or not. He probably won’t win, but he will move the Overton window, and that is what we need right now.
8 Nov 2007 at 1:28 am
I found this post quite useful. I am not the most aware person and never understood why conservatives seem to dislike libertarians when I thought they had much in common. This read made it clear to me.
8 Nov 2007 at 2:01 pm
Thanks for sharing that link Glaivester.
8 Nov 2007 at 3:31 pm
Trent’s denunciation of the benign American-lead world order is classic. In 1913, intellectuals were bemoaning the British and French Empires and aching for them to be cast overboard along with the corrupt system in China and Russia and the Ottoman Empire. Didn’t work out so well, did it? The cost of the passing of that world order was not just to peoples in far away places with names English speakers cannot pronounce, many of whom were my relatives, but to hundreds of thousands of Americans and Englishmen.
So Trent, with all due respect, go fly a kite, or better yet, move.
As for the social issues brought up, this http://prosandcons.us/?p=5638 bears directly on the social fight, and honestly, I trust the Supreme Court picks of the other Republican contenders as much as I do those of a fiery ideas libertarian, because sometimes those libertinish tendencies in libertarianism make libertarians react in socially destructive ways when given the temptation to make legislation from the bench, not that I think a Justice Ron Paul (and that could be fun) would be tempted similarly.
I am perhaps more libertarian at home than Chris, but decidedly not in foreign policy, pining as I do for the Habsburgs, for the days when the British Queen was also Empress of India and even occasionally for the idiot Hohenzollern, Manchu and Romanov Dynasties.
Jules may rue the British Empire and British relevance in the hard world of bayonets, but where there was British rule, there was hope. The British were very popular in the First Czechoslovak Republic and are fondly remembered from Somaliland and Basra to Singapore and the Bahamas for a reason. Americans were forced out of our insularity when we helped nudge the British into self-destructive Fabianism, and we’ve been subsidizing what order there is in the world since, even as Europeans free-ride on that protection into socialist societal euthanasia (and no, I do not mean that the recent spread of the flat tax is not revitalizing much of Europe or that Europe is a goner).
How sad that jules, a man who is likely a Tory, has slipped into the despairing, cynical right of Continental reactionaries. English speakers used to be can-do people who built the world’s economy, legal framework and military order. I suppose the grinding down by pillows of the EU has sapped the manhood and hope from much of the British right. How sad. Just as in America, but moreso the vital spark seems to be dimming among Anglo-Saxons and Celts, Slavs, Asians and Latins seem to be stepping in to fill the breech.
Just my two cents.
8 Nov 2007 at 4:43 pm
Paul will never win the Republican nonmination, and thus can’t be elected president as a republican. But he could be elected president as a third-party candidate. Ross Perot, a one-issue kook, received almost 20% of the vote in a three-man race and might have been elected president if he hadn’t dropped out of the race for weeks because of manic-depression.
8 Nov 2007 at 4:57 pm
No he might not have been elected president under any set of circumstances. Have a reality check. Since when did “conservatives” live in fantasy land where structural constraints mean nothing.
8 Nov 2007 at 9:48 pm
Honza P must be congratulated, I suppose, on not referring in his post to either Neville Chamberlain or Winston Churchill.
But if a national debt exceeding $9 trillion, a large chunk of its foreign debt and trade deficit in Chinese hands, millions of illegal immigrants and the disastrous expedition in Iraq hasn’t disillusioned him regarding America’s imperial ambitions, then nothing I say could have any effect.
8 Nov 2007 at 10:23 pm
Weirdos huh?
You can sit there in your little bubble and dream up whatever reality you want, but in THIS reality, it isnt a bunch of conspiracy theorists who have devalued our dollar by 50%
Sorry to shatter your paradigm, but no WACO conspiracy theorist caused oil to go to $100 a barrel.
No “troofer” caused autism rates to skyrocket to over 1%.
No wacko shouting “9/11 was an inside job” caused us to buy lead coated toys made in China.
And no, it wasn’t some lunatic fringe that made your hero Dick cheney buy a house in Dubai, nor did they make your other hero Bush buy land in Paraguay.
Truth is, you are so far detached from reality that you make even the ufo nuts seem sane in comparison. All these people going crazy! Erm… maybe it’s just you?? Sooner or later you are going to realize that is indeed what is happening!
9 Nov 2007 at 5:32 pm
Iconoclast421, what the heck are you talking about? What world do YOU live in? And is Dr. Paul taking appointments with you?
The Dollar is not 50% devalued, first of all, and secondly, the devaluation of the dollar is going to turn out to be a positive force in the economy because a lot of jobs are going to return to this country and exports are going through the roof. Canada’s dollar is at an alltime high, and is currently worth more than the US$. Yet go to McD’s and order a #1 Meal. In Chicago that will cost you about $5US. In Canada, it will cost you about $8 Canadian!
Autism “rates” are up because the definition of autism changes every day. You think this sudden “epidemic” and 1:166 nonsense just happened in one day? No. But lots of things once considered a learning disability or other issue are not lumped into “autism”. Soon everyone will be autistic on one way or another.
Lead coated toys from China? China is a growing industrial powerhouse. Along the road, they took some shortcuts. They lack some internal oversight. Thankfully, oversight on our side led to recalls and such things. It’s not like all the 3 year olds in this country all died. In fact I’m not sure anyone ever even got sick.
Cheney and a lot of other celebs bought land in Dubai. Big deal. Dubai is a great real estate investment and a very hot vacation destination. Heck, if I could afford it, I’d buy land there.
Grow up, my friend. The world is a complex place. Don’t believe everything that’s whispered in your ear.
9 Nov 2007 at 7:07 pm
Well done, Osama Obama. Well done.
10 Nov 2007 at 2:51 pm
the devaluation of the dollar is going to turn out to be a positive force in the economy because a lot of jobs are going to return to this country and exports are going through the roof.
I’m not doubting your word, but do you have a link? Are we on the verge of a manufacturing renaissance?
11 Nov 2007 at 1:05 pm
Well, according to Macroeconomics 101, the dollar’s slide is only the inevitable corrective outcome of running such a huge trade deficit. But rather than asking why the dollar has fallen, the more pertinent question is:
Why has the dollar been so high?”